By issuing decrees banning girls/women from school, gyms and public parks, and from working at NGOs, the Taliban regime controlling Afghanistan seems to have made it clear that it does not intend to keep the promises it made of protecting women’s rights. It also seems to be reneging on its other assurances, such as ensuring an inclusive government, the safety of minorities, and disallowing terror groups to operate from Afghanistan. Should India, which changed its traditional stand against the Taliban by holding talks with the group and setting up a mission in Kabul this year, review its position? In a conversation moderated by Suhasini Haidar, Amar Sinha and Tara Kartha discuss India’s policy choices. Edited excerpts:
Q / How do you perceive India’s policy towards the Taliban today?
A / Tara Kartha: India’s policy is based on a hard dose of realism, an understanding that you don’t get to choose what government is there in other countries; you deal with whoever is there. That’s always been, and should be our policy. After all, the Taliban are Afghan and India has been saying we want an ‘Afghan-led’ government. If we are committed, as Prime Minister Narendra Modi said, to the people of Afghanistan, and if we want to make a difference to the people of Afghanistan, we have to work to some extent through the Taliban. Remember, neither is it business as usual with the Taliban nor do we recognise them. We are just working through a technical mission in Kabul to channel aid. If we want to help the people, there is no other way. That is what all the other countries are doing.
A / Amar Sinha: India’s policies over the last 20 years were based on supporting the Afghan people and the democratic government, and trying to build Afghanistan as a nation-state. However, what we are doing today is about pragmatism driven by a fear of missing out, as if the Taliban is the only option there. In the process, we have ditched not only our friends, but even Afghanistan as a nation. Is this the type of nation we want in our neighbourhood, which is radicalised and driven by ideology and is some sort of a ‘Mullahcracy’? I believe supporting this regime in any way will sow the seeds for further destabilisation and continuation of terror. And as a result, many of the policies that we worked on for years have come to naught.
Q / Given the Taliban’s decrees on women, should the world curtail its engagement with the regime in Kabul? Or is that unrealistic?
A / TK: That’s a good question. It’s a hard choice, because I think the Taliban are using this as a bargaining tool to get what they want from the international community. (In exchange for the Taliban’s demands for unfreezing of funds and easing of travel sanctions.) If you take women out of NGOs, and NGOs shut down, it will be disastrous for the people. Let’s see whether these decrees are implemented strictly, as it varies from region to region and commander to commander. We can hope that wherever we have a little space, we can extend some quiet help.
A / AS: Of course, everybody is acting in the name of the people of Afghanistan. But it is the people of Afghanistan who are suffering the most under the Taliban, their repression and their denial of basic, fundamental rights. And what the Taliban are telling the world is ‘take it or leave us the way we are, we will govern or we have these 30 million people captive under the barrel of a gun’. Just delivering food aid, wheat or medicine is a way of helping, but it doesn’t solve the problem of Afghanistan.
Q / After the attacks by the Taliban, especially the Haqqanis, on Indian embassies, where Indian officers and diplomats were killed, can the government trust the Taliban on terrorism?
A / AS: If there is any country which has any influence on the Taliban, it is Pakistan. It has the largest influence on the Haqqanis. Now, if Pakistan has not been able to get the Taliban to stop terror groups coming into Pakistan or hand over TTP (Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan) fighters, what is the chance that others can trust them [the Taliban]? For the last 20 years, Taliban fighters were enmeshed with other groups including the Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad. For us to expect that they will ditch them just because they have goodwill towards India would be fooling ourselves. That is why I hold that our principled stand on terrorism gets diluted, because you cannot argue only against the nations sponsoring terror [Pakistan], but be willing to engage with the instruments of terror [the Taliban and the Haqqanis].
A / TK: As of now, there is no question of trust. We’re just talking to sections of the Taliban, who as a group have never been anti-India and are not hostile today either. They want our money, they want to deliver governance to their people, they have to deliver, especially to their own cadres… So, you have to work with what there is, and hope that in time this may change. Meanwhile, you have at least one toe on the ground to see what’s going on.
A / The fact is, you can’t trust anyone, not even your best allies. And it should be noted that despite all the support Pakistan gave the Taliban, they still have the TTP there. This is how terrorist groups operate. They can turn around 180 degrees at any point. So, if you don’t want another hijacking, like the IC-814 incident, and you want some entities there whom you can rely on, you have to have some presence on the ground. There’s no other way.
Q / Should India restart talks with Pakistan?
A / AS: That should be the next logical step. This sort of an ideological government in Kabul is going to be nobody’s friend. We have already suffered because of radicalisation within the Pakistani military and the ISI (Inter-Services Intelligence). We need to cooperate and help Pakistan meet this challenge of radicalisation within its society, because in the long term, it [radicalisation] is against our interest. How do we achieve it? I don’t know. Temperatures are so high that I don’t see a conversation, at least a public conversation, taking place with Pakistan.
A / TK: I wouldn’t link talking to the Taliban with talks with Pakistan. Let’s be clear: the radicalisation is a two-way street — the Taliban ministers who banned women’s education were brainwashed in Pakistan. There is a continuing ideological link between these two, and our job is to make sure that that link is undermined by connecting to a more moderate Taliban.
Q / At the same time, should India engage politically or militarily with the non-Taliban opposition, including Ahmad Massoud Jr and the National Resistance Front, as it once supported Ahmad Shah Massoud and the Northern Alliance?
A / AS: My categorical answer would be yes to political support. Because if our stated policy is that we are willing to engage with the entire spectrum of Afghan people, and this was the argument we used when there was an outreach to the Taliban, I don’t see any reason why we have to forsake the others. Why can’t Afghans from outside come to India and we could facilitate a dialogue among them? So, while we can try and make new friends [the Taliban], we shouldn’t forget our old friends [the democratic regime] like this. Unfortunately, we see the issue purely from a security perspective. I strongly believe that diplomacy has to come back. We should have a technical mission there, but one which is empowered to help Afghans seeking education or healthcare, which gives visas to them, etc.
A / TK: I agree that we must get our visa policy right and allow Afghan students and others, including those with serious medical conditions. In terms of engaging with the opposition, we can facilitate them in international forums. But if India wants to be effective inside Afghanistan, we cannot have a lot of anti-Taliban opposition leaders sitting here. So, I would say facilitate the opposition without being overt about it.
Q / Given all this, what changes, if any, in policy regarding the Taliban should the Indian government make?
A / TK: We must be practical. If there is any positive way to help Afghans both inside and outside the country, we should do it. But nothing which causes more bloodshed for the Afghans. Our policy at the moment should be to restart projects, and when possible, link this to reopening schools in outlying districts, or even building new schools for girls. There are after all sections of the Taliban who want to lift the ban in women’s education, if only to get international aid. One could work with these elements, and more importantly be seen as assisting the Afghan people. That will earn us goodwill, and that’s what diplomacy is about. Above all, it is the right thing to do in a war-torn country.
A / AS: Ultimately, our policy must look at what is a long-term solution for Afghanistan. The Taliban regime is just a phase. Much depends on what sort of terror groups build up there and whether terror attacks emanate out of there. We don’t have to review our presence; the technical mission should stay there. But it has to be empowered, so that it has the ability to help Afghans. And we have to review our policy on Afghan visas. We also have to be conscious of the fact that some of the key supporters of the Taliban have faced attacks already in Kabul (China, Russia, Pakistan) from groups inimical to the Taliban.
Should India review its position on the Taliban?
By issuing decrees banning girls/women from school, gyms and public parks, and from working at NGOs, the Taliban regime controlling Afghanistan seems to have made it clear that it does not intend to keep the promises it made of protecting women’s rights. It also seems to be reneging on its other assurances, such as ensuring an inclusive government, the safety of minorities, and disallowing terror groups to operate from Afghanistan. Should India, which changed its traditional stand against the Taliban by holding talks with the group and setting up a mission in Kabul this year, review its position? In a conversation moderated by Suhasini Haidar, Amar Sinha and Tara Kartha discuss India’s policy choices. Edited excerpts:
Q / How do you perceive India’s policy towards the Taliban today?
A / Tara Kartha: India’s policy is based on a hard dose of realism, an understanding that you don’t get to choose what government is there in other countries; you deal with whoever is there. That’s always been, and should be our policy. After all, the Taliban are Afghan and India has been saying we want an ‘Afghan-led’ government. If we are committed, as Prime Minister Narendra Modi said, to the people of Afghanistan, and if we want to make a difference to the people of Afghanistan, we have to work to some extent through the Taliban. Remember, neither is it business as usual with the Taliban nor do we recognise them. We are just working through a technical mission in Kabul to channel aid. If we want to help the people, there is no other way. That is what all the other countries are doing.
A / Amar Sinha: India’s policies over the last 20 years were based on supporting the Afghan people and the democratic government, and trying to build Afghanistan as a nation-state. However, what we are doing today is about pragmatism driven by a fear of missing out, as if the Taliban is the only option there. In the process, we have ditched not only our friends, but even Afghanistan as a nation. Is this the type of nation we want in our neighbourhood, which is radicalised and driven by ideology and is some sort of a ‘Mullahcracy’? I believe supporting this regime in any way will sow the seeds for further destabilisation and continuation of terror. And as a result, many of the policies that we worked on for years have come to naught.
Q / Given the Taliban’s decrees on women, should the world curtail its engagement with the regime in Kabul? Or is that unrealistic?
A / TK: That’s a good question. It’s a hard choice, because I think the Taliban are using this as a bargaining tool to get what they want from the international community. (In exchange for the Taliban’s demands for unfreezing of funds and easing of travel sanctions.) If you take women out of NGOs, and NGOs shut down, it will be disastrous for the people. Let’s see whether these decrees are implemented strictly, as it varies from region to region and commander to commander. We can hope that wherever we have a little space, we can extend some quiet help.
A / AS: Of course, everybody is acting in the name of the people of Afghanistan. But it is the people of Afghanistan who are suffering the most under the Taliban, their repression and their denial of basic, fundamental rights. And what the Taliban are telling the world is ‘take it or leave us the way we are, we will govern or we have these 30 million people captive under the barrel of a gun’. Just delivering food aid, wheat or medicine is a way of helping, but it doesn’t solve the problem of Afghanistan.
Q / After the attacks by the Taliban, especially the Haqqanis, on Indian embassies, where Indian officers and diplomats were killed, can the government trust the Taliban on terrorism?
A / AS: If there is any country which has any influence on the Taliban, it is Pakistan. It has the largest influence on the Haqqanis. Now, if Pakistan has not been able to get the Taliban to stop terror groups coming into Pakistan or hand over TTP (Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan) fighters, what is the chance that others can trust them [the Taliban]? For the last 20 years, Taliban fighters were enmeshed with other groups including the Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad. For us to expect that they will ditch them just because they have goodwill towards India would be fooling ourselves. That is why I hold that our principled stand on terrorism gets diluted, because you cannot argue only against the nations sponsoring terror [Pakistan], but be willing to engage with the instruments of terror [the Taliban and the Haqqanis].
A / TK: As of now, there is no question of trust. We’re just talking to sections of the Taliban, who as a group have never been anti-India and are not hostile today either. They want our money, they want to deliver governance to their people, they have to deliver, especially to their own cadres… So, you have to work with what there is, and hope that in time this may change. Meanwhile, you have at least one toe on the ground to see what’s going on.
A / The fact is, you can’t trust anyone, not even your best allies. And it should be noted that despite all the support Pakistan gave the Taliban, they still have the TTP there. This is how terrorist groups operate. They can turn around 180 degrees at any point. So, if you don’t want another hijacking, like the IC-814 incident, and you want some entities there whom you can rely on, you have to have some presence on the ground. There’s no other way.
Q / Should India restart talks with Pakistan?
A / AS: That should be the next logical step. This sort of an ideological government in Kabul is going to be nobody’s friend. We have already suffered because of radicalisation within the Pakistani military and the ISI (Inter-Services Intelligence). We need to cooperate and help Pakistan meet this challenge of radicalisation within its society, because in the long term, it [radicalisation] is against our interest. How do we achieve it? I don’t know. Temperatures are so high that I don’t see a conversation, at least a public conversation, taking place with Pakistan.
A / TK: I wouldn’t link talking to the Taliban with talks with Pakistan. Let’s be clear: the radicalisation is a two-way street — the Taliban ministers who banned women’s education were brainwashed in Pakistan. There is a continuing ideological link between these two, and our job is to make sure that that link is undermined by connecting to a more moderate Taliban.
Q / At the same time, should India engage politically or militarily with the non-Taliban opposition, including Ahmad Massoud Jr and the National Resistance Front, as it once supported Ahmad Shah Massoud and the Northern Alliance?
A / AS: My categorical answer would be yes to political support. Because if our stated policy is that we are willing to engage with the entire spectrum of Afghan people, and this was the argument we used when there was an outreach to the Taliban, I don’t see any reason why we have to forsake the others. Why can’t Afghans from outside come to India and we could facilitate a dialogue among them? So, while we can try and make new friends [the Taliban], we shouldn’t forget our old friends [the democratic regime] like this. Unfortunately, we see the issue purely from a security perspective. I strongly believe that diplomacy has to come back. We should have a technical mission there, but one which is empowered to help Afghans seeking education or healthcare, which gives visas to them, etc.
A / TK: I agree that we must get our visa policy right and allow Afghan students and others, including those with serious medical conditions. In terms of engaging with the opposition, we can facilitate them in international forums. But if India wants to be effective inside Afghanistan, we cannot have a lot of anti-Taliban opposition leaders sitting here. So, I would say facilitate the opposition without being overt about it.
Q / Given all this, what changes, if any, in policy regarding the Taliban should the Indian government make?
A / TK: We must be practical. If there is any positive way to help Afghans both inside and outside the country, we should do it. But nothing which causes more bloodshed for the Afghans. Our policy at the moment should be to restart projects, and when possible, link this to reopening schools in outlying districts, or even building new schools for girls. There are after all sections of the Taliban who want to lift the ban in women’s education, if only to get international aid. One could work with these elements, and more importantly be seen as assisting the Afghan people. That will earn us goodwill, and that’s what diplomacy is about. Above all, it is the right thing to do in a war-torn country.
A / AS: Ultimately, our policy must look at what is a long-term solution for Afghanistan. The Taliban regime is just a phase. Much depends on what sort of terror groups build up there and whether terror attacks emanate out of there. We don’t have to review our presence; the technical mission should stay there. But it has to be empowered, so that it has the ability to help Afghans. And we have to review our policy on Afghan visas. We also have to be conscious of the fact that some of the key supporters of the Taliban have faced attacks already in Kabul (China, Russia, Pakistan) from groups inimical to the Taliban.
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